Ep. 10: We Tried to Keep it Light… We Failed (w. Cindy)

EPISODE DESCRIPTION

Matti welcomes longtime friend Cindy to the podcast for a conversation that starts out lighthearted and quickly turns into something much deeper. What begins as a discussion about Cindy's first spa day since moving to New York becomes a broader exploration of technology, social norms, friendship, healthcare, media consumption, and the strange realities of modern life.

Along the way, they debate whether people should bring laptops into Himalayan salt rooms, swap stories about remote work gone wrong, compare notes on current television obsessions, discuss the criminal justice system, examine the growing shortage of medical specialists, and reflect on the impact of social media on both younger and older generations.

Highlights:

• Cindy's surreal spa experience underneath a Brooklyn subway line.

• The mystery of the woman using both a laptop and a phone in a Himalayan salt room.

• Why remote work may have permanently changed public etiquette.

• Matti and Cindy's current TV recommendations, including The Pitt, St. Denis Medical, and The Boys.

• A discussion about expert witnesses, jury selection, and trust in the justice system.

• The growing shortage of rheumatologists and what it says about healthcare incentives.

• Whether social media is just a problem for kids—or a problem for everyone.

• A reflection on friendship, optimism, and why it's still worth believing things can get better.

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TRANSCRIPT

Matti: Welcome to the It’s Gonna Be Fine podcast. Guess what? I’m not alone today. Cindy’s here.

Cindy: Hi!

Matti: You were at the spa this morning.

Cindy: I was. First time since moving to New York.

I’ve been feeling anxious and stressed, my back’s been hurting, and I finally decided I needed a massage. I found this place called World Spa tucked underneath the elevated train in Brooklyn.

And when I say tucked underneath the train, I mean surrounded by auto repair shops and industrial buildings. The nicest thing on the block besides the spa is probably the Dunkin’ Donuts.

Then you walk inside and suddenly it feels like you’re in a luxury resort in Hawaii.

They have Japanese rooms, Turkish rooms, Moroccan rooms, Finnish rooms, Himalayan salt rooms—basically every type of relaxation experience imaginable.

But while I was there, something happened that made me think of you.

I walked into the Himalayan salt room and there was a woman lying there with both a laptop and a phone.

Matti: No.

Cindy: Yes.

A laptop and a phone.

At the spa.

And I couldn’t stop thinking about it.

If you’re spending money to come relax, why are you bringing multiple devices into the relaxation room?

The World Is Not Your Office

Matti: That reminds me of something I saw at Stonehenge.

I was visiting London years ago and took the bus out to Stonehenge. We finally arrive and there’s a guy standing there on a work call.

Not on the train.

Not on the bus.

At Stonehenge.

One of the most famous landmarks in the world and he’s talking about deliverables.

My friend and I looked at each other and were like, what’s the point?

Cindy: That’s exactly it.

Remote work is a blessing and a curse.

It’s amazing that you can travel and still work. But somewhere along the way people started interpreting that as “I should work everywhere.”

The world is not your office.

I had another experience recently at a coffee shop. There was a private room specifically designed for calls. It was empty.

Meanwhile someone sat in the middle of the café, no headphones, and took an entire Zoom meeting out loud.

And all I could think was: when did we lose the social norms around this?

Matti: I think 2020 changed people.

I remember going back into offices after COVID and suddenly everyone was taking calls at full volume like they were still sitting alone in their basement.

It’s like people forgot other humans exist.

TV: The Original Friendship Language

One of the first things Matti and Cindy bonded over nearly two decades ago was television.

So naturally, the conversation shifted there.

Matti: We’re both huge TV people.

Are you watching anything right now?

Cindy: I’ve become obsessed with social deduction reality shows.

I just finished Secret Millionaire on Netflix.

I’ve also somehow become a Gordon Ramsay person.

Matti: That’s shocking.

Cindy: I know.

I always thought Gordon Ramsay was this angry screamer.

Instead I watch him and think, “This man just wants everyone to succeed.”

It’s very confusing.

I’ve also been watching St. Denis Medical.

Matti: I liked the first season a lot.

It reminded me of Superstore, which I could probably watch for the rest of my life.

Cindy: Same creator.

Same energy.

And honestly, it feels like one of the few comedies recently that’s actually made me laugh.

Friends Forever

The conversation eventually landed where many conversations between Matti and Cindy inevitably do: Friends.

Cindy: I still watch Friends almost every day.

Matti: After Matthew Perry died, I had to stop watching for a while.

It was too sad.

I took about a year off and only recently started again.

Cindy: Lisa Kudrow has been talking about watching the show from start to finish for the first time.

Matti: I love that.

It’s crazy to think about because when we were watching it, we were teenagers.

Now it’s this massive piece of television history.

The Shows Everyone Is Watching

Matti brought up IMDb’s list of the most popular shows.

Neither of them had much interest in Euphoria.

Neither had watched Invincible.

Neither was particularly excited about Beef.

But when The Pitt came up, both immediately lit up.

Cindy: I love The Pitt.

It’s incredible.

The problem is I can only watch one episode at a time because some of the medical situations hit a little close to home.

But the writing and acting are phenomenal.

Matti: It’s one of the best shows I’ve watched in years.

And whenever an episode ends, I always think, “Wait, that’s it?”

It somehow feels like ten minutes and three hours at the same time.

What I love most is that it makes me respect doctors.

Cindy: You want to be a doctor now?

Matti: Kind of.

Not necessarily an ER doctor, but it reminds me how much good people can do.

And honestly, one thing that gets me every time is watching doctors genuinely care about strangers.

There’s something really moving about that.

Cindy: That’s beautiful.

The Criminal Justice System Conversation

The conversation then took a surprisingly serious turn.

Matti: I’ve been rewatching The Practice.

And something keeps bothering me.

The idea of paid expert witnesses.

You can literally hire someone to come testify and support your side.

How is that not a problem?

Cindy: That’s interesting because I had a jury duty experience that completely changed how I think about the justice system.

I remember being asked whether I had any biases.

And I told the judge I had interned at the Innocence Project.

The judge asked if I believed in the criminal justice system.

And I said something I’ll never forget:

“I believe the criminal justice system exists. I don’t believe it works.”

Needless to say, I wasn’t selected.

Matti: That’s actually one of the most concise descriptions I’ve ever heard.

Because I think a lot of people feel exactly that way.

Is Social Media Ruining Retirement Too?

Most discussions about social media focus on children.

But Matti recently came across an article that highlighted another group increasingly struggling with it: retirees.

Matti: The article was written by retirees who admitted they were becoming addicted to social media.

And it made me sad.

Not because they’re doing anything wrong.

Just because after working your entire life, these are supposed to be your years.

And instead you’re staring at a screen.

Cindy: I think we make a mistake when we frame social media as a kids problem.

It’s an everyone problem.

Kids.

Parents.

Retirees.

Everyone.

We’re all susceptible.

We’re all impressionable.

We’re all vulnerable to algorithms.

And honestly, I think calling it a youth issue lets the rest of us avoid looking at our own habits.

Matti: That’s a really good point.

The Healthcare Problem Nobody Talks About

Toward the end of the conversation, Matti shared a statistic that stopped both of them in their tracks.

Within the next decade, demand for rheumatologists is projected to exceed supply by more than 100%.

Even more alarming:

72% of U.S. counties currently don’t have a practicing rheumatologist.

Cindy: That’s terrifying.

Especially when you think about people with arthritis, lupus, autoimmune diseases.

These aren’t rare conditions.

Matti: Exactly.

And it’s not just rheumatology.

Primary care.

Endocrinology.

Neurology.

Cardiology.

There are shortages everywhere.

Cindy: It always comes back to incentives.

Insurance.

Reimbursement.

Administrative burden.

Something in the system is broken.

Because if people need care and doctors want to help, why are we ending up here?

Matti: That’s the question.

Is It Gonna Be Fine?

After covering spa etiquette, television, healthcare, social media, the justice system, and retirement, there was only one question left.

Matti: Cindy.

Is it gonna be fine?

Cindy: It has to be.

And until it is, I’m going to keep watching comedies, social deduction reality shows, and Friends.

That’s my plan.

Matti: That’s actually a pretty good plan.

Cindy: What about you?

Matti: I think it’ll be fine because people are paying attention.

We’re talking about these things.

We’re thinking about them.

We’re trying to understand them.

And as long as we keep doing that, I still have hope.

Cindy: I like that.

And honestly, being here talking with you gives me hope too.

When we met 17 years ago, I never would’ve guessed we’d still be having conversations like this.

But here we are.

And if our friendship is any indication, maybe things really are going to be fine.

Matti: I love that.

Thanks for joining me, Cindy.

Cindy: Anytime.

Matti: And thanks to all of you for listening.

We’ll see you next time.

This transcript has been edited for readability.