Ep. 20—Beyond Monogamy: Love, Family, and Connection feat. Sophie Lucido Johnson
EPISODE DESCRIPTION
What makes a family? What makes a relationship? And can one person realistically meet all of our needs?
This week, Matti sits down with writer and author Sophie Lucido Johnson (@sophielucidojohnson) for a conversation that begins with polyamory but quickly expands into something much bigger: friendship, chosen family, communication, jealousy, and the many ways people create meaningful connection.
Whether or not non-monogamy is for you, this conversation offers an opportunity to better understand a relationship style that is often reduced to stereotypes—and, in the process, explores bigger questions about what we expect from the people we love.
Referenced in This Episode
Kin: The Future of Family by Sophie Lucido Johnson
https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Kin/Sophie-Lucido-Johnson/9781668060650The Cut Documentary: Beyond “The One”: Exploring Modern Polyamory
https://www.thecut.com/2019/02/beyond-the-one-exploring-modern-polyamory.html
TRANSCRIPT
Matti: When several podcasts I listen to all started discussing polyamory and other non-traditional relationship structures, I realized something: I had a lot of questions. Not because I’d formed strong opinions, but because I hadn’t heard many thoughtful conversations about the subject.
Research suggests that roughly one in five Americans has participated in some form of consensual non-monogamy at some point in their lives, yet it’s a topic that’s often reduced to headlines, assumptions, or stereotypes.
To better understand it, I sat down with writer, cartoonist, and author Sophie Lucido Johnson, whose books include Many Love and Kin: The Future of Family. Our conversation covered everything from definitions and misconceptions to jealousy, communication, and what relationships can teach all of us—whether we’re monogamous or not.
Defining the Terms
Matti: Sophie, welcome to It’s Gonna Be Fine.
Sophie: Thanks for having me.
Matti: I thought we’d start with a few definitions because I think a lot of people—including me before I started researching this—tend to lump different relationship structures together. Can you explain the differences between polyamory, open relationships, and consensual or ethical non-monogamy?
Sophie: Sure. Polyamory refers to having multiple loving relationships where everyone involved knows about and consents to the relationship structure. That consent is really the defining characteristic. The term itself dates back to the 1990s, although the practice certainly predates the word.
Open relationships are a little broader. Typically, two people agree that it’s acceptable to have sexual or romantic experiences outside the relationship, but there are many different versions of that. Some couples have “don’t ask, don’t tell” arrangements, while others share everything.
Polyamory doesn’t really allow for that kind of secrecy because openness and communication are foundational. A simple way to think about it is: all polyamorous relationships are open relationships, but not all open relationships are polyamorous.
As for “ethical” or “consensual non-monogamy,” those are newer terms that became more popular over the last several years. They essentially describe the same thing, but people wanted the language itself to emphasize that everyone involved is participating knowingly and willingly.
Matti: One thing I wondered while reading Many Love was why you called it Many Love instead of Many Loves.
Sophie: It comes from the language roots of the word “polyamory.” I always liked that the phrase sounds a little unusual because, honestly, polyamory itself doesn’t fit neatly into traditional categories. Every polyamorous relationship looks different. It’s a little messy, a little unconventional, but people find ways to make it work. The title reflects that.
The Opposite of Jealousy
Matti: There’s another word you use that I’d never heard before: compersion. Am I pronouncing that correctly?
Sophie: You are. Compersion is often described as the opposite of jealousy. It’s the feeling of genuine happiness when someone you love experiences joy with someone else.
The classic example in polyamorous relationships is feeling excited because your partner had a wonderful date instead of feeling threatened by it.
But I actually think people experience compersion outside romantic relationships all the time. Imagine a close friend publishes a book, wins an award, or lands their dream job. You could feel jealous—but sometimes you just feel genuinely thrilled for them. That excitement on someone else’s behalf is compersion.
Why People Explore Polyamory
Matti: One thing that stood out to me from an interview you gave years ago was the idea that many people don’t pursue polyamory simply because it sounds exciting. Often they arrive there because traditional relationship structures weren’t working for them. What do you think people misunderstand most about why someone explores polyamory?
Sophie: Everyone’s path is different, but I do think there’s a common misconception that people choose polyamory because they simply want to have sex with lots of people.
For me, that wasn’t the motivation at all.
I’d been serially monogamous for years. After one breakup, I realized the relationship itself hadn’t failed. There were still so many things we valued about each other. What frustrated me was how monogamy often feels very binary—you either stay together or the relationship ends completely.
What I really wanted was to preserve the intimacy and friendship while allowing both of us the freedom to continue growing and dating other people. There wasn’t really a cultural script for that.
Eventually I met my now-husband, and we built a polyamorous relationship together. Over time I also formed two other long-term relationships. Ironically, because those relationships have lasted so long, I’m not really looking to add anyone else. At some point you simply run out of time.
Honestly, my relationships today are incredibly boring—in the best possible way. They’re stable, functional, and full of love.
One of the biggest lessons I’ve learned is that no single person can realistically meet every emotional need another person has. Most people solve that by relying on close friendships—or by quietly suffering when those needs aren’t met.
In fact, I think really deep friendships often fit under my broader understanding of polyamory. That’s what my newer book, Kin, explores: relationships that aren’t romantic but become chosen family.
Matti: And those relationships are worth intentionally nurturing.
Sophie: Exactly. My husband isn’t someone who enjoys long emotional conversations. That’s just who he is. My girlfriend, on the other hand, loves talking through feelings.
Instead of expecting my husband to fundamentally change, I simply recognize that different people fulfill different roles in my life. I still talk to him about those things, but if I leave that conversation wanting more emotional processing, I know someone else who genuinely enjoys having those conversations with me.
To me, that’s healthier than demanding one person become everything.
Is Polyamory for Everyone?
Matti: You also make it clear that polyamory isn’t for everyone. So what separates people for whom it works from those who ultimately decide it’s not right for them?
Sophie: I think every loving relationship requires sacrifice—it’s just that the sacrifice looks different.
In monogamy, the sacrifice is fairly obvious. You’re giving up the possibility of future romantic or sexual relationships with other people. That’s a profound commitment, and I think there’s something really beautiful about saying, “I love you enough that I’m willingly making that choice.”
Polyamory asks for a different sacrifice.
Instead of sacrificing other relationships, you’re sacrificing emotional comfort.
You don’t get the certainty that everything will always stay the same. You accept that you’ll probably experience jealousy, insecurity, difficult conversations, and emotional vulnerability again and again over the course of your relationship.
That’s a huge sacrifice too.
So when people ask me whether polyamory is “better,” I don’t think that’s the right question. The better question is: Which sacrifice feels more aligned with the life you want to build?
Some people tell me, “I’d love to date other people, but I couldn’t stand the thought of my partner dating someone else.”
To me, that’s someone recognizing they aren’t willing to make the sacrifice of emotional discomfort—and that’s okay.
What isn’t realistic is wanting the freedom to date whoever you want while expecting your partner to remain exclusively committed to you. That’s not really about love. That’s simply wanting the benefits without accepting the sacrifices that come with them.
Love Always Costs Something
Matti: That idea of sacrifice really seems to be the through line in how you think about love.
Sophie: I think it is. I genuinely believe love hurts exactly as much as it’s worth.
If you choose to deeply love someone, you’re also choosing vulnerability. Even in the absolute best-case scenario, one of you eventually loses the other. That’s simply part of loving another human being.
It’s painful, but it’s also beautiful. That’s why we write stories, make art, and keep choosing love anyway.
Does More People Mean More Drama?
Matti: One assumption people often make is that adding more relationships automatically creates more drama. But you’ve said your experience has actually been the opposite.
Sophie: It has.
Years ago, my husband and I participated in a documentary about polyamory. It ended up featuring two different couples: us and another couple whose relationship was honestly pretty unhealthy.
That documentary has been viewed millions of times, and almost all the comments focus on the other couple. People point to their struggles and say, “See? This is why polyamory doesn’t work.”
Meanwhile, our portion of the documentary is basically…our wedding.
That’s not very exciting television.
Our relationships have largely been stable and functional. I love my husband. I wouldn’t change anything about him. We have a daughter. I have a long-term girlfriend. I also have a long-distance boyfriend. Our daughter has multiple adults who love her, more people to spend time with her, and more trusted adults we can list as emergency contacts.
That’s actually pretty boring.
People often want confirmation that the relationship style they’ve chosen is the “right” one. If they’re monogamous, they may expect polyamory to fall apart because that reinforces their worldview.
But sometimes different things simply work for different people.
Unfortunately, there’s still a great deal of stigma. I actually use a different last name at work because when other parents discover I’ve written books about polyamory, some simply disappear from my life.
That part still hurts.
Matti: I don’t know if this helps, but the fact that you’ve stayed committed to this because it genuinely works for you says a lot.
Sophie: Thank you. Honestly, my relationships are probably the area of my life where I feel the most confident. They’re wonderfully boring—and I mean that as a compliment.
Why Communication Matters So Much
Matti: One thing that came up repeatedly while I was reading your work was communication. I remember you describing how nervous you were to first bring these ideas up with your now-husband, and then being surprised by how he responded.
Sophie: First of all, I have to compliment you on the research you’ve done. It’s impressive.
But yes, early on I was nervous.
My husband has always been remarkably calm. In the thirteen years we’ve been together, I can think of maybe one time he was genuinely jealous, and it happened very early in our relationship while we were still figuring out boundaries.
Ironically, I’m actually the more jealous one.
He’s incredibly patient about talking through those feelings with me.
We’ve also always practiced what’s called kitchen table polyamory, meaning everyone involved feels comfortable sitting around the same table together. The alternative is parallel polyamory, where partners don’t really interact with one another.
Personally, I’ve never seen parallel polyamory work well over the long term.
When you’ve never met your partner’s other partner, it’s easy to imagine them as this perfect, intimidating person who’s somehow better than you.
The moment you actually sit down together, they become…a normal human being.
They’re flawed. They’re interesting. They’re just another person.
I experienced this myself when I met one of my boyfriend’s partners. I liked her so much that it actually made me appreciate him even more because I could see how he cared for another person. Watching someone nurture healthy relationships can actually deepen your admiration for them.
Building a Community, Not Separate Worlds
Matti: Does your husband know your boyfriend and his partner too? Is that what kitchen table polyamory looks like?
Sophie: Absolutely.
Everyone is part of each other’s lives.
My boyfriend lives in Los Angeles, so when he and his partner visit, they stay with us. They’re helpful. Honestly, once you have a child, all you want is more helpful adults.
My girlfriend and her husband live just down the street from us. We all live in roughly the same neighborhood.
It’s nice to have dinners together. Sometimes dates involve more than two people. Sometimes they’re just little gatherings.
While researching my book Kin, I spoke with families organized in all kinds of ways—three parents raising one child, multiple couples sharing a home, polycules raising children together.
The challenge isn’t necessarily making those relationships work.
The challenge is that our legal system wasn’t built for them.
If your partner isn’t legally recognized, they may not be able to visit your child in the hospital or make emergency decisions. The same problem exists for chosen family and lifelong friendships.
My best friend has been in my life since we were thirteen years old. My daughter calls her Aunt Jess. If my husband and I were unavailable, I’d absolutely trust her to care for my daughter.
But legally, she’s just a friend.
There are so many meaningful relationships our institutions simply don’t recognize.
Is Total Transparency Necessary?
Matti: When you meet someone new, you don’t necessarily know whether they’ll become a friend or something more. Do you believe it’s important to tell your partners every step of the way, or do you first figure out what the relationship might become?
Sophie: Every relationship is different, but for me it’s almost a non-question. If something significant happens, Luke knows within minutes. Kat knows. Jess knows. We’re a web. I don’t really keep secrets from the people closest to me.
Of course, if someone tells one of us something confidential that has nothing to do with the rest of us, that confidence is respected. But when it comes to my own life, there’s nothing I’m intentionally hiding.
If I met someone I thought was fascinating, I’d probably tell my husband immediately.
I’d say, “I met someone really interesting—I want you to meet them too.”
These days, though, I don’t spend much time wondering whether a new relationship might become romantic. Life is busy. We have a four-year-old. I honestly don’t have the energy I had ten years ago.
Rethinking Jealousy
Matti: Let’s talk more about jealousy because you’ve actually answered some of my questions naturally throughout this conversation. One thing that surprised me in Many Love was that you describe several different types of jealousy and even suggest different ways of working through each one. The only type you basically say to run from is possessive jealousy. You also quote relationship expert Dan Savage, who argues that working through jealousy can actually strengthen a relationship, and psychologist David Buss, who suggests jealousy is evidence that attachment still exists. So is jealousy actually useful?
Sophie: I’m very pro-jealousy. I think jealousy is an incredibly valuable map because it’s almost always pointing toward an unmet need. Rather than trying to suppress it, I think we should move toward it and ask, “What is this feeling trying to tell me?” Sometimes you’re not actually jealous of your partner—you’re jealous of the other person. Imagine Luke is dating a fictional woman named Rhonda who has amazing tattoos, and I start thinking, “Maybe he really wants someone like her. Maybe I’m not enough. Maybe I need tattoos too.” That isn’t really about Rhonda. It’s about my own self-worth. Somewhere along the way, I’ve stopped believing I’m lovable exactly as I am, and that’s something I can work on with therapy, friends, or simply by understanding where those feelings are coming from. One of the most valuable lessons I learned came from a woman who had practiced polyamory for more than fifty years. She told me that whenever someone in the relationship is hurting, everyone should stop and turn toward the hurting person. That’s so different from our instinct, which is usually to defend ourselves. If Luke immediately says, “Why are you upset? I love you. I live with you. I only see her once a week,” he’s defending himself instead of paying attention to the pain. The healthier response is simply, “You’re hurting. Let’s understand why.” Often that’s all someone needs. Once they feel heard, the jealousy starts to lose its grip.
Matti: That reminded me of a story in Many Love where meeting someone you were jealous of completely changed how you viewed them.
Sophie: It almost always helps. People email me saying they’re struggling with jealousy, and one of my first questions is, “Have you actually met this person?” Usually the answer is no because they’re practicing parallel polyamory or a “don’t ask, don’t tell” arrangement. It’s very difficult to stop seeing someone as a threat if they’ve never become a real human being to you. That said, every situation is different. Recently I spoke with someone whose partner secretly started another relationship without telling them. By the time everyone met, jealousy wasn’t really the issue anymore—trust had already been broken. That’s cheating. Polyamory isn’t permission to cheat. It’s an agreement to communicate more, not less. If you’ve violated trust, the priority isn’t protecting the new relationship; it’s caring for the person who’s been hurt.
Commitment Isn’t the Same as Monogamy
Matti: One thing I’ve been thinking about throughout this conversation is commitment. Society often seems to treat commitment and monogamy as though they’re the same thing. Do you think they are?
Sophie: I don’t. I think we’ve inherited a very specific cultural story: you meet one person, fall in love, get married, buy a house, have children, and that’s the happy ending. Almost every romantic movie tells some version of that story. What’s interesting is that the movies usually stop there. They rarely explore the decades that follow, when people actually have to build a life together. Personally, I think many parts of family life become easier when more adults are involved. I’d challenge almost anyone to argue that raising children with more loving adults is somehow worse. Historically, people had grandparents, extended family, neighbors, and entire communities helping raise children. Today we’ve isolated ourselves into tiny nuclear households and then wonder why everything feels overwhelming. I love romantic comedies—they’re wonderful stories—but they’re still fantasy. They’re entertainment, not instruction manuals.
Living Openly
Matti: What’s it like telling friends or family about your relationships? Do you choose carefully who you tell? Has that gotten easier over time?
Sophie: At this point, everyone who’s been in my life for a long time already knows. Early on, my grandmother kept assuming it was just a phase. Years later, it obviously wasn’t. The harder part now is meeting new people. Having a four-year-old means I’m constantly meeting other parents, and eventually they discover my books or my social media. Sometimes people quietly disappear after that, and yes, it’s still sad. I usually don’t volunteer the information unless it naturally comes up because I’ve learned what the reaction often is. People physically pull back a little, almost like they suddenly think you’re strange, and then I feel this pressure to prove I’m actually a competent, normal person. To be fair, there are unhealthy polyamorous relationships—but there are also unhealthy monogamous relationships. The relationship structure itself isn’t the common denominator.
Looking Back—and Looking Forward
Matti: Earlier in your career you spent a lot of time educating people about polyamory through interviews and podcasts. Do you still enjoy doing that?
Sophie: Honestly, it’s complicated. When I wrote Many Love, I wanted to tell a story that hadn’t really been told before. At the time there were books about the logistics of non-monogamy, but I wanted to write about loving multiple people rather than simply sleeping with multiple people. Looking back, I sometimes regret how closely that book became attached to my identity. When I later applied to teach high school, my principal admitted she had almost decided not to hire me because she worried students would associate their teacher with sex simply because I’d written about polyamory. That really hurt because it completely missed what I was trying to explore. Since then, my work has shifted. I created an audio project called Love Without Sex, and then I wrote Kin, which is really about chosen family and our deep human need for connection. To me, that’s the larger conversation. There are things monogamous families can absolutely learn from polyamorous communities—not necessarily about dating multiple people, but about expanding our understanding of care, friendship, and family.
It’s Gonna Be Fine
Matti: We always end with what we call the “It’s Gonna Be Fine” moment. Despite the stigma you described earlier, is there anything that leaves you optimistic about the future?
Sophie: Absolutely. I think every generation genuinely wants to care for their children better than the generation before them. When I talk about the ideas in Kin—that we need villages, that we belong to one another, that friendship deserves more recognition than we give it—people don’t push back. They lean in. They ask, “How do I build that?” I think we’re already seeing it happen. More adults are living together, more people are creating intentional communities, and more friendships are becoming chosen family. People are sharing childcare, homes, even Costco memberships. Those things sound small, but they represent people intentionally building lives together. Whenever disaster strikes, whether it’s wildfires, floods, or a pandemic, we instinctively turn toward one another and ask, “How can I help?” The more I learn about how social we are as a species, the more optimistic I become. Even introverts like me ultimately want connection. I really believe we’re wired to move toward one another.
Matti: That’s actually a beautiful way to bring everything together. Earlier we talked about turning toward the hurting person in a relationship, and it feels like you’re saying the same principle applies to society as a whole.
Sophie: Exactly. You caught that. I did that on purpose.
Matti: Sophie, thank you so much for joining me. Your latest book is Kin: The Future of Family, and for anyone who’d like to learn more, where can they find you?
Sophie: Instagram is probably the best place. You can find me at @SophieLucidoJohnson.
Matti: Wonderful. Thank you again for being here. And thanks to all of you for listening. We’ll see you next time.
This transcript has been edited for readability.
